I am searching for a selfhosted and secure (end to end encryption) chat platform for my family (5-20 users), possibly one i can host on a raspi.
Is matrix a good choice, or should i try something else?
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I’ve been using matrix for years to this purpose, but moving to xmpp/prosody now
Can I ask why you’re switching?
No.
Yeah ok. First of all, because I can 😁. I mean z what’s good being an IT nerd if I can’t change stuff when I want?
Jokes aside, I’ve been reading more recently on matrix and looks like there are some security issues in the design of the app/protocol. I’m on mobile now, I’ll look for sources when I’m on pc. Also I don’t like that it is a server centric system (so data is primarily on the server instead of the clients). Also it takes more resources than I was expecting. For less than 10 users I can’t have less than 4gb of ram (on a dedicated debian server, running docker) or it swaps so much it kills the system.
So basically I’m testing out if xmpp is a better system for those issues.
Conversations being paid on the google play store is what’s stopping me from going xmpp… I can’t just say “message me via xmpp, you can use the Conversations app”. Now I’d have to explain what F-Droid is and why would they even get another app store and enable “unknown apps”. it’s not doable. I remember telling my mom to install Signal (before I got into self hosting) because I deleted whatsapp and she got angry like she worked for the zuck, saying “what do you mean you don’t use whatsapp” with an astonished face, started lecturing me on why I was destroying my social life… That just made me realize right now they probably wouldn’t download conversations either…welp I just wanted to share
I know exactly what you mean. Just for general information, I’ve found another android client that I think it’s better than Conversations. It’s called Monocles chat (and it’s on f-droid). On matrix/xmpp I install the whatsapp bridge. I can convert a few close family members but no way everyone. For me it’s an acceptable compromise. I get the close members to use my servers/apps, everyone else through the bridge so I can at least have all the chat in one place
What clients will you use for xmpp/prosody?
The easiest is to use the clients officially rebranded for Snikket, but there is a good overview on modern clients on https://joinjabber.org
Gajim on pc (I use arch btw - well endeavourOS because I can’t be bothered) and don’t remember what on android (there is the full list or clients and capabilities on xmpp.org)
How do you convince your family/friends to switch to a new app on their smartphone and use one just to talk with you/others in the crew?
Frienda no, but I do use whatsapp bridges so I can have all conversations in one place.
Family with extreme nagging, and because I’m the IT guy of the house so they kinda trust me/can’t be bothered to try and out-talk me.
WhatsApp bridge? How does it work?
The chat server (matrix and xmpp have different ones, but same functionality) that act like a whatsapp desktop client. Have you ever run whatsapp desktop client on your pc, where you have to pair it with your phone? Same thing, but you do it withing a special “bridge” (usually as a bot) in matrix or xmpp. So you get all the messages in one place. But it doesn’t work for calls, just for messages.
I’ve never heard about those bridges, thanks! I’ll have a look.
My dad suggested me this after i told him about the new upload filters the eu is thinking about. Here is a link to a german blog post about it: https://netzpolitik.org/2024/anlasslose-massenueberwachung-frankreich-wackelt-in-der-ablehnung-der-chatkontrolle/#dokument
Any Reason Signal doesn’t do it?
Selfhosted isn’t always the Best option
Edible paper, lemon juice, and hair dryers.
My threat model is not that big :)
I guess you’re not a furry then.
licks the edible paper, but it tastes like plant
meows
three main ones I’ve seen in this comment section are
• XMPP
• Matrix
• SimpleX
So all of these encrypt the conversations so not even the server admin can access them?
XMPP only does it with certain client extensions. And Matrix only does it when the rooms are set up this way. SimpleX does what you want, but is kind of unintuitive for the average user.
I say go with Signal, it does what you want and is idiot-proof.It is literally one setting in Matrix to force all rooms to only do encrypted messages.
Signal is pretty unintuitive when it comes to multiple devices per user, device transfers after a device has been lost,etc.
Signal is perfectly good under normal usage. Everything is unintuitive when it comes to extremes like losing your device.
Signal is annoying to use if you don’t have a smartphone you can trust, since they do not allow registration from desktop. So either an Android VM or Signal-cli. But maybe it was just a one-off bug that the desktop client didn’t bind to signal-cli for me. Still, the fact that you need an unofficial command-line application just to register makes it not exactly user-friendly.
I imagine that most people’s families will find Singal easier than using a CLI program anyway. It’s rare to find an entire family without typical cellphones.
Yea, but a typical cellphone is not as easy to make private as a typical laptop or desktop. Lineage has some tradeoffs and not accessible on all devices, and Graphene needs even more specific, quite expensive hardware!
Wouldn’t say that. With most Matrix Clients, WhatsApp, etc. it’s far easier. Especially from a perspective of a elderly,less tech adept user.
To be fair, pretty much all major XMPP clients have adopted OMEMO encryption, so doesn’t seem like much of an issue.
But it’s not self hostable.
no idea, I’ve just seen these in the comments
https://snikket.org/ (xmpp based) is perfect for that. Matrix will work, but you will likely reach the limits of your Raspi with it fairly soon if you allow federation with other servers.
XMPP. It just works, requires very little resources, is stable and has decent clients.
I would go with Snikket instead of Prosody if I had been starting now.
Conversations on phones, Dino or Gajim on PCs, plus a conversejs install on the xmpp server, to allow web access when needed.
Conversations is easy for the family to figure out.
XMPP if you are loving the 90’s
IP was invented in the '70s. Sometimes older protocols that work are just fine.
Same with email.
Sick burns
Fine is a relative word
Any particular problems you’re having or have you briefly used Pidgin in 2008 and think nothing has improved since then?
What’s your problem with xmpp?
It is text only for the most part
It’s not. Emoji reactions, stickers, audio-messages, audio/video calls are all supported by modern XMPP clients with smaller caveats depending on the client.
E2E is complicated, if you self-host for a group, having TLS and encrypting data at rest (storage) may be enough. Get a threat model. That being said, I would recommend snikket.org which is a superset of extensions over XMPP which is the open source IM that was the base of almost every app out there. Matrix and Rocket are both alright too. Depends too on your resources, synapse requires too much RAM (or so I heard)
Yes, XMPP with proper TLS on the server side and Conversations or one of its forks (preferably fetched from F-Droid) using OMEMO encryption should be good enough. If you are brave or paranoid, give Tox a try: https://tox.chat/
Except tox’s graphical clients aren’t maintained anymore
Ah, docker-mailserver and delta.chat could also be great for your case!!
Ideally, SimpleX (https://simplex.chat/). Session is nice, but less secure (https://getsession.org/). Delta Chat (https://delta.chat/en/) will be secure enough, and the most familiar visually. Lastly, XMPP is a great solution as well.
What makes session less secure? This is the first I’ve heard of it.
I am suspicious of it because you pretty much cannot host a node. Well, you can - but you’d have to deposit an INSANE amount of money (like $2k or something). While Simplex, even though I do have a concern with its initial centralization by the power of default, is decidedly easy to selfhost.
Session has user IDs, the so-called “sessions”.
Simplex is the first platform I’ve heard of that doesn’t use IDs (which doesn’t make much sense to me, practically, but sure). So would you say everything is less secure than simplex?
I say it depends on what you are looking for. Depends on your “threat model” – among other things.
For example, if you are looking for something more private (smaller chance on linking identities with digital footprint, smaller chance on identifying a person, etc), I suggest SimpleX. They also have a great protocol. Their white paper is worth reading as well. But it might be a little challenging for non-tech people. And the thing is still in development.
If you don’t mind Session’s IDs (after all you can still store them somewhere and change them), it’s a good one. The protocol is promising, and they have a nice white paper. Unlike SimpleX, it’s much easier to set up for a non-tech person, although it’s also in development.
XMPP (Conversations, Monal, etc) rely on a well-known technology, and it is stable. And the interface doesn’t scream “hacking”, " techy" etc.
Lastly, Delta Chat is also a nice project, with a well-known record. The interface looks super convenient and familiar. And the functionality is feature-rich enough in case you want to doe something special.
I would say the thing with IDs (or absence of IDs) is yet another layer that ensures privacy and security. But all of the apps are secure enough. Even Signal is secure enough if you don’t mind exposing your phone number.
I guess the real question is about convenience. That is, knowing about SimpleX, Session, XMPP, and DeltaChat, which one is convenient, private enough, and secure enough for your particular case.
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Sorry, didn’t mean to.
Matrix or XMPP.
Is it fast on a raspberry pi?
Uh, don’t know. XMPP likely yes.
Nothing is going to be fast on a raspberry pi.
Ok that’s just not true at all.
Core temps ramp up astonishingly fast on RPi!
ducks
minceraft
Still no suggestion that has wide cross platform and it’s just simple . Matrix has that all . So for now I choose matrix and clients
Lol, Snikket/xmpp has been suggested multiple times, and it is as good if not better regarding “wide cross platform” support. To get the same with Matrix you basically have to use a web-client or Electron, while XMPP has very efficient native clients.
just looked it up and couldn’t find a decent client for ios. There was Monal but it looks more like a draft rather than a finished application. Things don’t even have padding or margins. The snikket one I won’t even mention, you can’t expect people to use something that gives them visual discomfort.
I originally suggested Monal to my friend (who is quite into iOS and really appreciates a well designed application) and she found the same, but then she tried Siskin, and was happy enough to use it to this day.
Visual discomfort because it looks like an slightly older app? What kind of issue is that???
And Monal has improved a lot in recent months, the current version is mostly fine.
Visual discomfort because it looks like an slightly older app? What kind of issue is that???
You’ve met an iOS user.
…exactly the kind that discourages 60-something, non-technical family members.
It discourages 60-something nontechnical family members that the app looks like WhatsApp? Are you being serious?
I just have my kids, wife, close friends and in-laws on SimpleX.
Sure, some of them use mainstream stuff as well, but if they want to reach me, that’s their only option.
Matrix is a pretty good choice for self-hosted. The reason I don’t do it is because I’ve become lazy lately.
Matrix has issues and can be a pain
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I know it’s not self hosted but why not Signal? Matrix is demanding on a SBC and your family would probably get the ‘unable to decrypt message, please re-verify keys’ error that happens in encrypted matrix group chats and Element does not have the best UI especially if you want your grandma to use it.
Very unlikely by now, these issues have been adressed a while ago.
What’s your source on the reverify thing? I use matrix a lot, and this hasn’t been an issue I ever experienced anymore since they introduced cross-signing a couple years ago.
Same goes for the common clients such as element. It has been clunky in the past, but after the past major overhauls ( also years ago now) everything has been silky smooth for me, if not better than others. The one thing left I prefer from Signal is the one-time photo share.
Matrix is great, clients are great too, only the server part still is annoyingly complicated and messy. Would only recommend that for tinkerers, on that case it’s a great path to learning about the complexity of addressing lots of security concerns that others gloss over.
Edit: to add - there’s a reason why the French government and the German military decided to build their secure internal IM infrastructure on Matrix. Obviously they are hosting their own private network, but if the concept is good enough for European government and military, it is an indicator for quality especially in terms of security and privacy.
i had slightly issues with the failed to decrypt on element, just on a chat where the other person left
I recommend Matrix with the Conduit server. This server requires almost no resources and even runs on a Raspberry Pi.
Cinny works perfectly as a desktop client (in case you want to escape from the ubiquitous Element). And for mobile I would use Element for Android/iOS although FluffyChat also works very well.
Conduit seems to have next to no docs on actually installing it for some reason.
They are very focused on development and therefore the documentation is a bit sparse (maybe).
The truth is that it is not very complicated to install. It is simply to download the binary (it is statically compiled so it has no dependencies) place it in
/usr/binand execute it (the best is to create a user in the machine with the home in/var/lib/conduitand then launch it with systemd).Another option is to simply launch it with docker.
In any case, if you have problems, comment it here and we will look to see what could be happening.
This is nice to know. Cinny looks beautiful from a UX perspective, wish they made an app too. Not enough good UX in open source stuff.
Yes, without a doubt, for me it is the most balanced client, a pity that there is not for Android, but well, in mobile Element does not give problems either.
For me you can try to host a SimpleX server and then connect to it (with SimpleX it is pretty as much secure to run its one server than use a public one).
Or maybe use XMPP but try to use a good encryption protocol. This option is great in term of power efficiency, XMPP would run great on a RasPI
Did you have trouble setting up XFTP one? SMP was fine but XFTP seemed to have some error in the systemd settings provided in the manual.
Also https://conduit.rs/
Dendrite iirc is essentially in maintenance mode. I run a small one but I don’t think it’s expected to get any new features until there is more funding.
